On Hearing One Side of a Phone Conversation
13 December, 2007 by Tony Jones
So, while I was in Ireland, my dear Julie got to poking around the Internet, and she fell into the hands of Ken Silva. She was so outraged by Ken’s vituperations against me that she sent him an email. Then, they talked on the phone on Sunday morning (surprisingly, Ken wasn’t “pastoring” his church on Sunday morning). When she called from my cell phone, he didn’t answer; when she called from another phone, he did.All I heard was Julie’s side of the conversation, and it was entertaining. I heard comments like,”God is your lawyer?!?”"I’ve never heard of John MacArthur. Who’s he?”"Don’t cite scripture to me, Ken.”Julie is concerned about the possibility of libel and slander against me, not when Ken opinionates about my theology, but when he blatantly lies about me, like calling me a devil-worshipper or a cult leader.Ken has now posted Julie’s letter. I refuse to link to him, as I don’t want to improve his Google rankings, but I’m sure you can find it if you want.You can make Julie your FB friend HERE.Interesting comment string HERE.
Wow … I’ve always been blown away by some of these websites and “ministries” that seem to spend all their time raging against other Christians instead of reaching the world for Christ. I can see how it would drive your wife crazy seeing things like that written about you; I’d certainly be furious if someone wrote about my spouse that way.
Looking forward to the new book! : )
Sheesh. I’m still really confused how we’re allowed to hate, slander and just generally be a complete jerk to someone just because we disagree with them. All you have to do apparently is use the term ‘false teacher’ or ‘heresy’ and you can say whatever you want and then act like a martyr when they get upset.
I guess it works kinda’ like ‘with all do respect…’.
you can moderate this if you want tony . . . but ken is an ass-hole.
My sincerest apologies for having to deal with people like Ken Silva. I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church and was gently nudged away from some flawed-thinking with the help of B-Mac’s “New Kind” book.
I understand Ken’s passion and I understand why he feels his faith is so threatened by “emergent” types…because I know and love people who share his views. But why he has to be so vitriolic in the name of Christ is beyond me?
Let’s remember keep him in our prayers.
Keep up the great blog and great writing! Blessings for a joyous Christmas season!
Wow. I think what both sides need to do is sit down at a Starbucks with a 3rd party who is neutral and work it out, before we have more Christians aiming their guns at other Christians.
Tony, I am sorry for what is being said about you. I truly am and I truly am emergent at heart, but I do not think a defamation lawsuit will win anything. Remember, we are in the soul winning business, just like Ken is whether we like it or not.
1 John 4:12 Exhorts us “…love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” If we are seen as not showing love to a fellow brother are we really working as a witness for the gospel? That goes for both sides, I am not trying to pick a battle with one side or the other.
Both sides of the aisle do not need more ammunition, they need to lay down arms and embrace one another in love and humility. Fighting fire with fire just gets you a bigger fire to put out.
Julie: don’t lose any sleep over Ken.
Ah, Ken, who is no doubt reading this whole thread, must Google himself mercilessly (does that sound healthy?).
Unfortunately he has a blog that you can’t comment on. How cool is that? Kind of defeats the purpose, no?
Ken will continue, because Ken likes the attention, and there is great rejoicing in the expansive head offices of Apprising Ministries tonight as we discuss their valiant leader.
As far as firing our guns in a circle, I see Dawkins firing at many a not-extreme-enough atheist.
Easier said then done…
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
LUKE 6: 27-29
peace
Nice Scripture Julie,you Christians are so fond of certain ones i remember..
Maybe Josh is fond of the one about racca,Christians the kings of cherry picking
Anyhow not that its any of my business,i just like to read about what i left when i reverted, i find it soooo reassuring
GB
tony & julie - prayers all around ya’ll
this is just so heart breaking
If I could count the number of ad hominems on a recent post from purposedrivel (the blog title itself indicative of something other than the love of God itself). It bespeaks of envy. These are evidence of intentionally sinful behavior.
I applaud you that you have a strong wife. Strong women are quite threatening to those who would perceive the normative nature of woman to be subject to man and of the meek and mild sort. Her letter raises an issue with a clear reference point. The responses are pure ad hominem and then heap fallacy upon fallacy as so many so-called pundits do. A fallacy is only used as a rhetorical device when there is no credible argument to counter another. These are indeed the clanging cymbals that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.
How one can post such diatribe and still dare proclaim the Gospel of Christ which is that of a radical and redeeming love is always a mysterious force I would liken more to the Antichrist of John than the true Gospel of love. Rather sad to see Christians engage in such behavior.
But opposition fuels the viewpoint. My advice is to follow the early missionary advice of Jesus in Matt. 10:14 - “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.” Remember that this was a command to “the lost sheep of Israel” and not to the Gentiles! Clearly there are lost Christians among us. It is vital to maintain the balance between this instruction while seeking justice and love for our neighbors.
I just find it kind of amusing that Mr. Silva does not have comments open over at his blog. Apparently he is the sole owner of the truth.
Pastorboy, faith has ALWAYS been contextualized within a culture. In that sense Tony is not doing anything other than what others have always done (albeit, often unconsciously). Please, please, please– offer specifics if you’re going to call someone unorthodox. And if you’re going to toss out that term, please, at least pause to consider that- if you’re an Evangelical Christian, you’re probably someone for whom many Eastern Orthodox and Catholics would fear for as well.
Do you really think you have somehow stumbled upon an abstract “saving” understanding of faith that the majority of those who would call themselves Christian throughout history have somehow not?
Your understanding may seem like a treasure to you. If may even be consistent (most of the time). But that does not make it exclusively right. All you hold my friend is yet one more contextualized understanding of Christian tradition. Bring it to the discussion, but don’t foolishly and arrogantly assume it is ALL THERE IS THAT REALLY MATTERS.
And again, above all else, offer specifics. Otherwise it’s just name calling and the throwing of virtual stones. If you really believe what you’re saying is true, then you should have no problem offering your points of contention- in detail, rather than in vague reference.
ABOUT WATCHDOG CONSERVATIVE XIAN ONE-SIDED, VOID OF ANY CONVERSATION WEBSITES
My attorney explained that they have multiple sites that contain crossover content just to cheaply boost their ranks. She said also that they target high profile people & groups and cut and paste their writings to cheaply and easily get big hits and then add slanderous and character defaming comments as if it is an op ed piece.
DEFENDING TONY & EMERGENT
It is not a church, it is not a cult, he is not a guru, heretic , hindu, satan worshiper, buddhist, or going to hell like “HWSNBN” & his 2 female flanks that I like to call “Motion” claim about him or Emergent. Your conservative brethren is out of control and being sued because he committed a crime and has said defaming and slanderous statements on-line for 3 years.
My attorney has 43 slanderous, and defaming statements made by HWSNBM.
BTW: I am not going to help drive up HWSNBN ranks by visiting the 3 hate sites. I encourage you to do the same.
I have made parody of the actual names of HWSNBN sites, but you can probably figure them out.
DO NOT CLICK ON
Surprising Ministries
Beacon House
xian research?
FOR THE RECORD
1. I asked this guy to knock it off.
2. I wrote him.
3. I called him.
4. He won’t stop it.
Yeah, I used to work at TreeHouse with Josh back in the day. So maybe we HAVE met….They called me “Chiz”
My wife says I am a born-again emergent. I was pretty ‘emergent’ in the TreeHouse days. I consider myself emergent, but in a different way. I think we need to go back to an Acts ecclesiology. I believe in proclamation of the Gospel as an agent of life change that will change how you interact with the world. I am open to new ideas about how to be the church, as long as they do not contradict the clear teaching in scripture
Why, Are you not saved? I can’t really save anyone….I just want to have a conversation. LOL
I do not live in Minneapolis, and I was taking a trip up there to pick up my daughter at Crown College on the 20th. I like to conserve fuel so when I do make it to the cities, I like doing everything on one trip. We are coming back up on Sunday Night the 23rd for our family Christmas celebration. Perhaps we can do something on the 20th in the evening?
Rap? you ARE dating yourself, Jules. We used to say that back in the 70’s LOL
May the Peace of Christ dwell in you richly!
What part of “I am not trying to pick a battle with one side or the other” was not clear pastor boy? I do however not understand how you can view the gospel as being a part from the culture?
Pastorboy,
Thanks for taking me up on naming some specifics. That now gives me an opportunity to make a point.
With your examples, all you have done is run in circles, defending your own cultural, contextualized INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture with more of your own cultural, contextualized INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture!
My friend, you exist in a context, Scripture was written in a context, Scripture has always been understood and applied in a context.
You cannot escape it. You do not live in a vacuum, not did the people God inspired in the writing of Scripture.
This is the thing- you are not understanding the point being made by some of the folks within the EC: contextualization ALWAYS happens. We are not doing anything differently than you- you just don’t realize this fact.
Sorry if I (and others) sound arrogant. But you (and others who come at this with the same perspective as you) just do not yet get the contextualization issue. You really don’t. You’re running in circles and calling it the straight and narrow.
I think Julie is awesome for calling these folks to account. The problem is it will never happen. They don’t seem interested in anything resembling honest, civil discourse. They just want to be right. And when that’s your ultimate goal, there’s no room for those who think you’re wrong–not to mention those you think are wrong, which is everyone who doesn’t agree with you. There will never be an apology or a balanced reference to Tony or Doug or emergent or anyone or anything else that isn’t in line with the version of Christianity these folks are trying to uphold.
And for those who think Tony and his fellow emergents give as as good as they get, I have never heard or read anything by those who are truly committed to this conversation question Ken Silva’s salvation. I have never heard or read anything that calls Ken Silva a heretic. I have never heard or read any of these people suggest that Ken and his friends are devil worshippers or the sons of Satan or that they might as well hiss. If there are those who have, then they need to be called to account as well. That kind of accusation goes against everything the gospel is about.
It’s no wonder the emergent church is thriving. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be part of a faith where it’s considered honorable to treat people with the disrespect and disregard for basic human kindness that seems to be at the heart of those diatribes. The more they rail against us, the more appealing we become to those who cannot stand the arrogance they see and feel from the church.
No wonder people say women should be seen and not heard. Your wife is an idiot. She gives women a bad name.
No member of my Christian faith community would say such a backward comment like, “no wonder women should be seen and not heard.”
Your giving the male race a bad name, sir.
Which group are you speaking on behalf of Darryl?
Julie McMahon Jones
Julie Jones said “Easier said then done…
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
LUKE 6: 27-29
peace”
I guess it is for you since you are suing instead of blessing. At least you are honest enough to admit that you are not following scripture and provide the chapter and verse.
Todd,
We have been turning the other cheek for 3 years. Tony called him a year ago, I learned. Still he attacks, slanders, and defames Tony and many more good Christians that don’t deserve this garbage.
I wrote him, I called him and now I have taken up legal action against him because he is relentless. That is well within my constitutional rights to do so. You say it isn’t Chrsitian then are you saying that to HWSNBN too, or just over here because he doesn’t have a comment function.
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.
He has gone too far and if you adhere to this brand of Christianity, then you should be the first to call him out for conducting himself in a very un Christ-like way.
I feel sorry for HWSNBN but he has hung himself by being so out of control.
I also know Jesus as a truth teller and at times spoke out with righteous anger.
It is time.
Todd,
Do you honestly think that the Bible teaches that no Christian, at any time, under any circumstance, should ever, ever, ever pursue legal means- especially when direct confrontation for the sake of resolution has been tried again, and again, and again- all to no avail? Remember, there is no church board ready to resolve this issue. There is no local community (one that has a vested interest in both parties) to seek out for help.
To turn the Bible’s teachings into a set of stony laws without allowing for any sense of nuance, is to make the narrative of Scripture something it was never intended to be.
Making more of something in Scripture than was originally intended is almost as bad as making less of something than was originally intended.
And in that sense, either approach is decidedly “unbiblical”.
Darryl,
What is it exactly makes Julie an idiot? Standing up for what she believes is right? Honoring her husband by asking repeatedly that others do the same? Have you read Proverbs 31? How about Galatians 3:28? If she’s an idiot, at least she’s a godly idiot.
Ken’s problem is that he lies. i think it is ok to disagree (though I am emerging I am decidedly un-emergent)…I also say crazy stuff on blogs (I try to be funny though
)so i have issues with things Tony says…however, I have never seen him lie, and he seems to be genuinely nice and humble. Ken Silva will never convince a single thinking person who does not already agree with him, because it’s all fluff and lies…you would think if he was really concerned he might want to find a more honest way to express it.
D
Not all of Scripture is intended to be narrative.
The point is that the overal thrust of Scripture is that of a living narrative describing the relationship between Yahweh and human beings across time and cultures. I’m not suggesting its all one genre- clearly its not. But the overal point is not that of a legal code or a science textbook.
A lot of comments about Mr. Silva having no comments capability at his site. This string is likely a great example of why I’d disable it, too. I’m not sure why he does not have it, but I wouldn’t doubt this is why.
Come on, really, what does it say about our pathetics lives today when this is what we spend our time doing? And, my the time it takes!
Ooops, looks like I’m guilty!
– paul
Paul, why sign off with “grace and peace” when you’re post contained almost nothing of either? You’re not fooling anyone with such hollow well-wishing.
You do realize that if you look hard enough you can pull verses and incidents from Scripture (without considering the depth and breadth of the whole) and just about justify anything?
To me, that’s what you’re doing with the “evidence” you stated above. You pull what you need to justify your position- even if such justifications seem to contradict the heart of Scripture’s most poignant revelation- that being the person of Jesus Christ.
Actually I would say that the heart of the Bible is the supremacy of God in all things. I do not believe the Bible is nothing more than a legal code or textbook, though it has been called such (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth). Leviticus, however, is most definitely legal code. Numbers isn’t much for the narrative either. Psalms and Proverbs don’t fit under narrative either. Nor do the epistles. In fact, weren’t the letters to the Corinthians a “watchdog” pointing out the errors that were popping up in the Christian faith? Paul called people names, and so did Jesus.
Again, Chris, no one is saying the Bible is all narrative -as a genre. I’m saying it carries, as a metanarrative, a record of the relationship between humankind and God- whether that’s expressed in specific situations via poetry, wisdom sayings, the Ten Commandments, historical narrative, apocalyptic literature, or what have you.
Please understand the difference between genre specifics- as pertaining to a particular book of the Bible, verses a canonical sense of the overall thrust of the Bible as a whole. Clearly we need to make sense of both. The problem, it seems to me, is not that people try and turn Leviticus into wisdom literature, but that people try and turn the gospels and the letters of Paul into legal codes.
One last point: just because there are evidences of “watchdogs” in the Bible, does not therefore justify any and every kind of mean-spirited character assasination. Who’s going to sign that hefty blank check?
Chris, do you honestly feel that God is behind such actions? I’m asking you specifically here- do YOU believe that the heart of God is expressed in the actions of people such as Ken Silva? If not, then covering over their sin with superificial references to the Bible is double-minded- at best.
Again, where is your sense of nuance in this? This is what I’m talking about. This is like turning books/letters into legal codes- when they clearly were never intended to be taken as such.
And I’m not talking about full-on situational ethics, I’m talking about a basic understanding that one situation is not necessarily the same as another- when only superficial similiarities exists between the two.
I think Darren is brilliant
Julie,
Your husband called John MacArthur a gnostic in a sermon he gave in Texas. Was that libel or slander?
actually it was “soft gnostic.”
actual quote, “is a soft gnostic as are 90% of American Christians.”
That is a long way off from calling someone a “cult leader and devil worshiper.”
HWSNBN may be doing God’s work but his delivery is not Godly. I don’t have a problem with others having opinions about Tony’s theology, but when it crosses the line into patently untrue statements meant to diminish his career that is where I take exception.
Julie, on this Holy Sunday of Advent was compelled to clear off the hate posts…sorry NAOIP.
That’s enough, everyone. I’ve given all of you haters just enough rope to hang yourselves.
Enjoy the Lord’s Day.
Thanks, Julie.